Interesting conversation with my son this weekend. This is the same kid who came up with the Canal Project. Big thinker. I admit, Monday afternoon and I’m still ruminating on what he said.
Here’s his premise:
If 90%+ of the world’s info is available from a smart-phone, college and various curriculums need to be rethought and updated. Our children (because he’s now the adult and thinking of future generations – which was a shock to me – cuz I still think of him as the kid) live in a world with information at their fingertips…. and they need to be taught how to use this information more effectively. His use of the word, “effectively”, snagged me, and implied he knew something I did not. I settled in to listen to him expound on his idea.
“This NEED should bring about a revolution in education because the current model does not account for the SPEED at which we can learn with new technology.”, he said. Okay, I can remember being bored in school at times…. and lost at other times.
He elaborated, “….Think about how people binge-watch Netflix….., why should a 6th grader who is interested in physical sciences STOP, or only learn one chapter a week? Why can’t they take tests on-line in the form of units? He noted when he was in 3rd grade (back in the stone age, I guess) they were already taking tests on-line. Why can’t unit tests be strapped into a local school server?
He had my attention…
… but continued.
“Same thing with foreign language. There are a half-dozen software programs available which are far more effective than a teacher in school, learning by semester….. and we have to RE-LEARN for a month when we return in the fall.” He was now standing, pacing, being expressive, and he was convincing.
Then, he dropped a bomb.
“The classroom is outdated. Teachers are outdated. The model was great, for thousands of years, but the model has not adapted to the new tech available and how much easier it is to learn, now.” To back up his claim, he gave the example of Khan Academy for mathematics, where a student can view a clip, look at different examples, back it up and listen again for clarity. Can’t do that with a teacher in class. He gave another example of the kid who daydreams and misses 80% of what a teacher says on a particular day. With the new tech, even the daydreamer could go back and review. We could substantially increase passing rates for all kids in all grades!”
Playing the role of Devil’s advocate, I questioned him about the socialization aspects of “school”. He quickly shot back, “Oh yeah, mom, let’s save the bullies?”, which was an ineffective argument when weighed against the overall benefits of socialization, the ability to read people, working within a team, etc. Yet, then, he had me, “More importantly, how much of bullying or individual bad conduct is caused because students are bored in class?” Gee whiz, wonder who taught my son to make a persuasive argument?
He was flushing the idea outloud and plugged in the Special Ed component. “We all knew the kids who went to special classes and it was embarrassing for them. Okay, let’s say, they take a unit test and get a 60%% grade, thus failing the test. Before they would be allowed to move on, they have to go through another review, and another test, to master material. Their failure is private, thus no embarrassment in class — but a teacher would know immediately. THEN, that kid would no longer be lost in class, AND the kid who understood the material quickly would not be bored and causing trouble.”
Then, he dropped another bomb.
He said, “Let’s look at it from a cost perspective and a wealthy versus poor school district perspective.” My eyebrow was curling, he was talking about taxpayer dollars. “If there are, let’s say, 25K elementary schools in America (he did not know the exact number), then why do we need 25K 3rd grade science teachers? AND, some of these teachers are wonderful and some stink. Why don’t we take the best ones, for lectures, ensuring ALL 3rd graders get the BEST lectures…. across all zip codes…. and the same great teacher in poor or rich communities?” I asked about the experiments and labs. He said, “Well, then we could have one teacher, 1-5th grade, spend a month with each grade, per semester, doing nothing but experiments and blowing things up. You know, mom, The LAB teacher.”
I said, “Well, to listen to lectures, test in units, students wouldn’t necessarily need to be in school.” He gave me the big eyes, “Yeah, they could be sitting in a treehouse, they could learn it in July instead of waiting until October.” Then, he gave the idea a big boost, “Let’s say a 3rd grader is interested in American Presidents, or astronomy, or bugs. Well, there’s no limit to the content available. Why can’t we have assigned reading on a Kindle or books on audio? Why can’t we design other units for those kids who are interested in ANY subject….. and maybe give them extra credit for other ‘electives’….. cuz you know, mom, not every 3rd grader is interested in the same thing…” Ahhh, the wisdom from a 21yr old…. But then, he gave me the example of 3-500 level classes he is taking in materials engineering. He said his professors are not teaching him anything, because they are electives and the professors are “phoning it in”. So, he signed up for the same class, on line, from MIT, to supplement his learning in the same class….. so he can, at least, understand it. Bizarre, eh? He said, “The MIT professor explains thing easily, as opposed to my professor” at the college he is attending….. the one we are paying for.
He was on a roll, “What we SHOULD be focused on is how to teach children how to THINK critically and recognize bias/propaganda within the information.”, he said, now looking for possible hazards or negatives for which we would have to plan for in “New School”. “New School”……., I thought, gheez, he’s already branded the idea. He continued, “Take any issue, The Civil War, Martin Luther King, Jr., The Environment, and students can source docs to represent both sides of any issue. How is it possible to discern what really happened and make a definitive statement about “who was/is right”? Then, he went into a long diatribe about how science is being corrupted for social ideology, minimizing the value of “pure” scientific method, and the hypothesis/result process.
He sighed, “Only mathematics remains uncorrupted by politics, but within a classroom, students are evaluated and graded based on the bias of a teacher.” He digressed with an example of an honors biology class he took which was taught by a cheerleading coach, when the parents of the boys in the class had to go to school and complain about her bias. He said, “Grading online, would eliminate that problem for multiple choice and true/false tests.” For grading of essays, in advanced grades, he suggested student be forced to write TWO persuasive essays on both sides of any issue and consistently, from 1st grade onward, be forced to identify facts versus opinions.
“New School”…… hmmmm, what are YOUR thoughts on the subject? My son went back to college on Sunday night, but I admit, he still had me thinking about it today.
End
Rethinking Education – Our Model for School is Outdated
Published
He’s totally right!
I believe all the best schools offer online course material to anyone. Sometimes for free, like MIT does.
Ummm…..
Having a parent who was a teacher, and a number of friends who are also teachers, and having a severe learning disability that was not caught until I was 22, I would ask the young man to hold off on patenting any educational ideas for now. You see, we are in the midst of a revolution in going back to the old ways of doing things in education because they work better.
Recently, cursive has resurged. There are people who consider it useless, and in their adult lives it may be, but as seven year olds, learning cursive helps with BRAIN DEVELOPMENT, manual dexterity needed for professions like being a surgeon (something surgery professors claim is lacking in students these days), and being able to read precious documents. What 7-18 year old is going to voluntarily learn the art.
Then there is reading. My particular learning disability flares under fluorescent lights. Things move on the page. It blurs. You get sleepy and daydream. Reading comprehension sinks. I get migraines around LEDs. About 40% of the population is effected in the same way. New research is also showing that all these screens kids are looking at from morning until night are not as effective as actual books for reading comprehension. I can attest to that as I have to read online items more than once many times to understand what is written. The real revolution in education could be to ditch the technology and help the BRAIN develop in a way that is more conducive to critical thinking like we used to do. Of course, better nutrition would help there too.
And then there is the matter of pushing kids to far too fast. The Jesuits have been teaching boys and young men for centuries. There is one specific class to which there are ZERO exceptions as to what age it is taught: geometry. A young man does not take geometry before he is fifteen. All sophomores take it at the same time regardless of where algebraic understanding is. Why? BRAIN DEVELOPMENT. The human brain is not ready prior to that for the concepts. This popped up with one of my nephews who is the youngest in his class. Yes, NOW he is the top performer in the grade, but he struggled in kindergarten because his brain was not ready for what was thrown at him.
AS for subjectiveness, when my parent who is a teacher, an American History major, graduated, she would not have been allowed to teach western civ in high school in the public schools because she received her education and degree from a Catholic institution of higher learning. Math and English were fine, but not western civ. Now ask yourself why. Science is not her thing, so can’t talk about that. However, the stacks of algebra tests she used to grade took forever because she graded for the work, or logical progression, rather than just the answer.
Honestly, a lot of people have answers for education without background information and the understanding of WHY things developed the way they did. Consideration for things like human development and the effect of the environment around the kids on a learning style doesn’t seem to come into play, either. Not all parents have the discipline to be teachers at home. A lot of home schooled kids switch at some point to an actual system and find out they are behind in one area or another. It is true that not all kids learn in the same way, and the schools really want cookie cutter kids at this point, but tossing the baby out with the bath water is essentially what is being suggested, and a bit of research will challenge that idea with cause.
Everyone agrees cursive should be taught. The Chinese can’t understand our cursive. If for no other reason, then, it should be taught.
No reason to slow down others, or help slower learners.
Not everyone does agree on cursive. There are online arguments on it all the time.
And I do think that kids ready to explore on their own should do so. But, human development has to be understood otherwise you’ll lose the kids.
I agree with you on cursive. How about that? But with “new school”, kids would have more time to learn cursive.
With “New School”…..
Kids could develop their own areas of INTEREST.
If you can’t get them INTERESTED in the subject…..
They won’t “Learn”…..
Memorize maybe.
True. There’s certain areas some kids will gravitate to, we can imagine that part. I suppose though, it’s a good idea for basic knowledge in all areas – at least until 12th grade, right?
I’m thinking out loud.
12th grade?
I’d rather see until proven proficiency in the basics. (Whatever grade)
Areas of interest can teach across many subjects. When I was a teacher it was called unit instruction. There is language, science, math, and reading 📚 in everything. Social studies and human impact of subject areas are in there too. You can slip in less interesting or difficult topics into units of interest.
Of course, not all parents are going to want to school at home. Schools need to restructure, more as a central learning depot which facilitates the learning and development rather than cookie 🍪cutter students. Montessori method is used for young learners, it could be used with older children too. Teach as Daughn ‘s son said to think critically and to ask good questions.
Cursive would be easy to learn on a computer screen you can write on. I was amazed to find that my nieces and nephews who graduated with 4.0 averages at Ohio State could neither read nor write cursive.
A lot of our history is written in cursive and we are greatly handicapped when we cannot read cursive.
Writing cursive is also excellent for small muscle development as children grow.
People are not “one size fits all”. Computer training offers a lot of things our outdated classrooms do not offer.
The “no more cursive” surprised many of us. In a public school, Gunner was taught cursive for about 4 weeks. When he went to private, they made fun of him because he could not do it well.
When I started faxing docs to China in 2003, I was REALLY surprised they could not read cursive. Hey — I thought, I could be a new kind of “code talker”. Pretty cool.
LOL Cursive is a mystery to many these days.
What D.P. described has been studied. Comprehension of text on paper can be up to 30% higher than comprehension of text on screen. And up to 30% of people are sensitive to electromagnetic fields to some degree. Take an autistic child and put them in a low EMF environment and most of the time they will calm/de-stress, stop obsessive behaviors and become teachable.
Up to 60% of Americans are taking at least one medication for a chronic disease. Those with chronic disease often have trouble with artificial lighting and EMFs. Phone/computer screens use LEDs for the pixels and then add thin fluorescent lamps along the sides of the screen brighten it. Both types of lighting can cause cognitive impairment as described by D.P. above.
Touch screens have their own EM fields and effects. Some people notice joint pain in the fingers or problems with the skin on the tips of their fingers.
Electronic devices are awesome and they create opportunity in unprecedented ways, but they are not for everyone.
“Up to 60%”, does that mean it could be 2%?
How about if we get them a book, or different screens? There is something magical about a book, smell of the paper….
Well, I was going from memory and hedged.
“Adults” not kids. I feel so healthy right now, and fortunate.
Interesting article. He’s one of the guys questioning 5G deployment for excessive voltage risks to health. Great read.
Yes, adults. This researcher seems to have a knack for finding interesting developments in this area.
My granddaughter is very bright never learned cursive, she taught herself to read it because she wanted to know what the letters she got from her old baby-sitter said. Kids cannot sign papers I wonder if that is a reason they are not taught.?
Cursive might help with brain development great I had to learn cursive from fist grade on and that with an ink pen. Today kids have the new type of coloring books that open the creative side of the brain.
I am a believer in montessori teaching myself but that is old fashion. Then there is Friedrich Foebel who taught through songs. Singing is like reading twice.
Of course Daughn todays kids have different toys and are introduced to tech in various ways from baby on.
Maybe your son is on to something? I am not an educator but always have been curious and taught my kids montessori in the home. They turned out to be very bright but I spend much time with since my husband traveled much .
I believe all kids are capable and bright . Todays kids are very technical and computer savvy. Maybe there is a new way ? I also believe being in a group exchanging ideas help stimulate the mind.
There is the energy that floats between people. Naturally bullies are a problem and to me that comes from bad parenting.
Daughn you are a good mom to listen ask good question without destroying creativity and new concepts 🙂
I don’t know, Singing Soul.
There’s SOMETHING there, but we don’t know what it is yet. Interesting to see young people blazing a trail and making that leap, whether it is approved of or not.
Obviously, the teachers unions and those who make textbooks would be opposed to any changes.
I often wonder, if we had an UNLIMITED supply of money (which is what we have now) to educate our children, what would be the best way to do it?
Lots of educational models in the world. You provided the key ingredient for your own children: your attention! It’s good to ask, what if children were taught to unpack their design and equipped to explore in whatever manner works best for them?
Oooooo, I like that one. Anything that makes them stretch is good. Right?
I will pick a bone with you regarding homeschooling. First off, the public system is broken. Way too many kids are lacking in some or other subject, but get passed on anyway.
Second, the standards have been declining while the leftist indoctrination has been increasing.
Third, it is the cookie cutter way or no way in the public schools. The unions and bureaucracy are designed to self-perpetuate much like the deep state. It is less about the kids and more about control.
I could go on for several more points. I am not talking about the good teachers out there, but frankly, they are rare.
Now, I homeschooled my kids. Two for most of their school years and one for a period of 8 months (during which he did little to nothing but still got on the honor roll when he returned to school).
I happily admit that my two other ones and I spent inordinate amounts of time studying the Medieval period and doing biology at the local state park. Inordinate amounts of time.
We lived around Boston at the time and visited every museum, famous house, art gallery, historic church, famous cemetery, etc. We were on the go all the time. And we goofed off a lot.
But they both write cursive really well, can think critically, know how to handle a weapon, cook and clean, live on a budget, give a dog his parvo shot, swim, fish, row a canoe, and so on. But most of all they know how to learn, not just memorize stuff.
Both got right into college. Their first year they became instant liberals. By their third semester they were hardened conservatives just like we raised them to be. 😄
Anyway, homeschool is not for everyone, but it is a very viable alternative to the institutional school.
With all that, I like what Daughn’s son has said. He’s spot on in most of what he says.
I know enough people who have homeschooled and got caught in the get behind trap to understand it is a pitfall.
Not all.
I would do it as a last resort, as I will not use public schools anywhere. My parents did for my brothers under controlled circumstances for a few years, but they made the sacrifices for private schools.
And I think the brain development issue has gotten lost in the argument.
Actually I like Dr Robinson’s Home Schooling courses.
NO COMPUTER!!! You learn to read and you lear math. THEN you get to use the computer. His method is SELF TEACHING. Teach the child to read and turn them loose with a bit of guidance. All his kids tested out of the first two years of college.
Homeschool Curriculum Excellence – Robinson Self-Teaching Homeschool Curriculum
http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>
I say no computer because kids now a days are reliant on computers and can not do math and some can barely write.
OH, and if you want to LEARN to write a book?
The classic method suggested is to copy an excellent example BY HAND.
CA public schools teach online. They di not teach handwriting. Just tap a button. No cursive. Just tap a button. Homework? No just tap a button while in class. A little bit of homework but multiple choice. Teachers are there to help the youngest socially and teach critical thinking. Mine is in private school. Charter school in our area is below par, like public schools. Teachers do not even grade the work, the computer does it. Theres no teaching being done, just supervision.
Mine has ipad education 1 time per week. I absolutely refuse to have him immersed in computers only. No. The computer does damage to their eyes while developing. It has been proven to damage their brain circuitty. It encourages gaming addiction. He is learning songs, art, community time, had a school play, p.e., how to work in a group, how NOT to work in a group, etc, and the little ones need the association.
Your son is right about the pace of learning and the level of mastery. That open learning model and ability to learn faster is necessary. Mine has already tested ahead but behind in a couple areas. He needs peers to assist socially and academically as they all are beginning. I would encourage academic summer camps for advanced subjects. I also see no problem homeschooling over summer as advanced as the kid can go in whatever subject they want.
Our state education mission statement was changed by socialists in the 1970s to remove the real mandate to educate and again critically think, and replace with the beginning social justice format.
The problem is the communists and unions and top heavy administrative state. Plus, checking the education codes state by state for sjw language.
Math in our state has been corrupted in public college for years. Many require essays on mathematics and non related topics, like sjw mathematicians, etc.
Its insidious.
I would acquiesce to a sliding scale of online work as the get older. As proficiency increases more online learning access and jumping levels could be allowed. Maintaining a certain ratio of physical class to online learning would be fine once in 9th grade.
No one says “computers only”, because of the socialization aspects necessary to produce productive children/adults. Take it one step further.
If the bulk learning could be done at home, or wherever, then schools could have 25-50% MORE time for the social aspects of development.
Your son’s ideas are really good and would work if all parents were supportive, conscientious, half-way educated, hard-working, sober, honest – like you! And if all kids were curious, intelligent and motivated like him! :8-)
Many kids home lives are not safe, sane, stable or conducive to learning.
My daughter in law taught 1st grade at a Jacksonville, FL city school where only one parent showed up for parents’ night – and that was a drunk/high grandma! Several of the kids would come to school with all the belongings they could carry because they didn’t know where they would be staying that night and didn’t want their clothes/toys to be sold for drugs by the adults in their lives.
That kind of upbringing crowds, takes over most of their attention/emotional/mental energy and makes it hard to find time, focus, and even a place to study.
Most schools nowadays discourage teachers giving homework because so few parents are interested/able to help, make sure it’s done.
Some kids can’t afford their own computers and sending kids home with school-owned electronics is an invitation to theft/damage, etc.
Don’t get me started on the way schools hide and ignore abuse of every kind by by teachers and students.
A caving buddy’s wife was a 1st grade teacher. One of her students was ‘off’ so she took her to the school nurse. The little girl had syphillis… That was back in 1972. I hate to think what it is like now.
I personally know of a local school’s failure to report abuse between students on two separate occasions. They have a great reputation and don’t want negative publicity so lots gets swept under the rug. The politicking is just heinous.
I think we can say that every family and every school has their good and bad sides. I will always err on the side of parents, however. In the average family, there’s enough love and care to grow reasonably healthy adults.
If families are offered a choice of educational options that can be tailored to individual needs, so much the better. The one size fits all of the public system no longer provides for the very diverse cultural realities of society today. When we were a culturally homogenous nation with shared values the system was ok.
Now with working moms and dads, high divorce rates, step families, etc., not to mention that schools now cater to the lowest rather than the highest denominator, we have big problems.
New options, new ways of gaining an education, and realizing one size does not fit all, will help improve education.
I agree with you here GL/FL, there are many homes that cannot support this kind of learning style. Some kids are in school just to ensure getting a hot meal once a day. I teach public school and I’ve seen enough to know that, but I also to realize that changes can happen for the better! I agree with Gunnar about giving kids choices and options and let the ones who want to truly learn about something go for it, for the secondary student this would be ideal.
Another GREAT idea is that for those who just want to get out and work… allow those students to learn skills and trades, not every high school graduate is destined to go to college. Why to do we need to force kids to go to college, get in debt only to see them party the year away, change their major three times and eventually drop out. Students should be on the pathway for “right to work” if that is what’s best for them individually. Unfortunately education is often streamlined and a ‘one size fits all’ concept is applied, there is only so much a public school system can do, even with the best intentions.
LCD versus LED screens are a big issue, agreed. Foreign language needs to start in kindergarten, we learned French, all the way through. I don’t know and none of us has the answers.
It’s undeniable however, tech has changed the way learning COULD work.
We need to rethink our system for ways to save funds, and most of all, deliver high quality education, equally.
Interesting ideas.
Daughn…… Sounds like Brilliance runs in your family 🙂
I agree with him….. there ARE better ways to learn.
INTEREST in the subject has to be near the top of the list.
If one is INTERESTED….. Much info is available now.
Some people like math…. some don’t.
Not everyone is born to be a physicist.
The BASICS… i.e. Reading Writing and Arithmetic
(Not sure who came up with the 3 R’s here – Not too smart)
Are surely needed… Phonics helped me greatly…. Not taught now.
Common Core is ridiculous…..
The Proof is out there that SOMETHING needs to be done.
We have WAY too many “Educated IDIOTS” running around now.
My stepson learned through phonics and he loved it. Wait until you hear this one. I saved the “program” for phonics. You remember, all those binders.
Years later, a big farmer, multi-millionaire, and godfather to Gunner, asked if he could borrow the phonics books to improve his accent and speech patterns. Loved that guy. Always learning, always improving.
I took an informal poll of a bunch of coworkers once–(all engineers).
Every one of them had learned to read via some sort of phonics.
Every. One.
In spite of the fact that many people our age did not get taught that way.
It’s clearly mentally crippling.
Steve, I was a victim of ‘See & Say.’ Mom tried to teach me phonics at home. The result is I read over 1100 words a minute with 95% reading comprehension. (I took a speed reading course and they kicked me out for reading too fast the first day. 😋 )
The down side is I can not spell worth crap. I can not read out loud and I can not pronounce many of the words I ‘know’ (It drives hubby nutz.) I am also terrible at foreign languages. I mangle German, French, Spanish AND English with equal abandon.
And yes, I think phonics at a young age and SINGING are needed for the brain to develop correctly. My therory is those of us who are tone deaf have a harder time learning languages especially after age 12. If you learn a foreign language after age 12 you will have an accent. Also your native accent is set around that age too. We moved a lot but my accent is that of the region I lived in at 9 – 13.
Actually babies start filtering sounds from a very young age- under 12 months. Chinese babies can’t distinguish between r and l after this time. A strong theory of autism is the failure to develop a mental filter. We pay attention to specific things in our environment and the brain sorts the rest as chaff. There is a more primitive brain on the lookout for danger in that chaff. With autistics their is no sorting and every stimuli is equal. They get overwhelmed in crowds or by loud noises. They also can’t apply rules or generalise. Ie white stripes on the road at a certain spot means it is safe to cross but white stripes elsewhere mean nothing. They also don’t develope theory of mind. Ie put a normal kid at a table with a teddy and a dolly. They each are sitting at a side with a barrier between teddy and dolly but the kid can see both. By age 3 -4 normal kid knows teddy can’t see dolly. Autistic doesn’t.
A father painstakingly taught his non verbal autistic kid to point to what he wanted. The dad was in the garden and saw the kid pointing at the biscuit tin. By the time he got inside the kid was in full on meltdown. The kid couldn’t comprehend that SOMEONE ELSE had to SEE him pointing.
Amazing.
One Mom of an autistic kid said she had to place her son in a ‘box’ so he could concentrate on his lessons.
There is also some thoughts that Autism is from Neanderthal/more primitive genes where it is very important to have situational awareness or you get eaten.
Neanderthal theory of autism
http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm
Articles by E.M. Smith (an Asper) about Autism and possible causes.
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/?s=autis
There was another really good discussion that I could not find @ Chiefios
So many things we don’t know about the human mind. So many things left to discover.
I still believe everyone should have to use a slide rule for a while before they use calculators or computer programs. Seriously.
I certainly agree. After you see the mistakes made by kids who can not even make change, I do not want ANY use of calculators in math classes PERIOD. Statistics after the first semester OK but not before that.
Calculators and computers are TOOLS they should not be crutches!
And estimating.
Would love to see kids who can estimate an answer, then realize a false answer would not be correct.
I forgot about that. Great point.
My mom was a human calculator. She only was able to finish her second year in HS because of the depression, but the quick and accurate results of her mental calculations always amazed me. She employed estimation often.
She owned a little store when I was 7 – 13 years old, and she always took me to Chicago to the wholesale marts to order misc. gift items to sell in our candy/soda fountain/sandwich/school supplies store during the holidays. Her mental tallies of the bill at the end of the spree, minus discounts, etc. were always on target.
When I had to take two modern math classes for education major at the local university I had such a mental block against it, my future DH tutored me through it at mom’s kitchen table while she cleaned up after dinner. She blurted out answere while scrubbing out pots and pans.
Where did my education go wrong!
Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
And I don’t necessarily think “school” means “smart”, either.
I know a lot of educated idiots. 🙂 and vice versa.
Hey, I’m laughing. I’ve been surprised at how stupid I can be.
Me too, meaning for me, not you.
Exactly.
Another beef I have is when teachers started to rely heavily on mimeographed worksheets, and now computers. Eye- hand coordination is essential to everything. Kids got gyped of honing this skill when copying from the blackboard or from textbooks to paper went out the window. (I may repost this point as a stand alone comment down thread.)
Ahhh, remember the smell of purple ditto ink?
Remember “writing lines” when we talked to much in class?
Sure do. I ruined a few articles ofclothing while making ditto copies for stuff for my class.
Also, when I was in GS, I thought I was ambidextrous while writing punishments until the nun told me my penmanship grade would also encompass the punishments. I eventually tried a new tactical approach… writing three lines with three pencils entwined between the fingers of my writing hand…the nun nailed me again. LOL
It should be possible to get basic reading, writing and arithmetic out of the way by eighth grade, and also introduce a smattering of other subjects, enough the that child has some notion of what’s out there in the world.
(However, if the child never learns to read, the rest of school is wasted on him. NOTHING should be introduced until he has that.)
If eighth grade seems too ambitious, it’s because we have *forgotten* how to educate.
It seems to me that’s what’s needed for adulthood, no matter what. By eighth grade one should have the tools necessary to function as an adult.
Post 8th grade, it should be possible to either start learning a trade (and by the way that includes the classic trades of carpentry, plumbing, electrical, etc. as well as more recent things like auto repair), or continue on an academic track for things that require that sort of knowledge–up to and including going to a university. But university should be relatively rare–and what is taught should be useful.
It’s largely because they are trying to shove EVERYONE through college now, that college has become dumbed down and filled with fluff. The hard, genuinely college-level stuff simply isn’t useful to everyone.
This is the traditional approach isnt it? By 9th grade you have an idea of your interests and strengths and can lean toward what youd like with some research and assistance. Kuds gave been made to feel inferior without a 4 yr degree, yet when they are in worthless subjects like pistmidern feminist dance theory, no one but the comp any earning interest on the student loans wins.
SteveInCO I agree with you. You described the German educational l model. The differences in Germany a trade is valued and I find here in the US it is less. Maybe it has changed in Germany also and push everyone into University I do not know.
All I know my husband tells my 60% of kids taking his classes in College do not belong they cannot write or read and hand in sloppy work. No one ever pushed them to write papers or critical thinking. By the time he gets them they are seniors and it’s to late.
AMEN, essays fell by the wayside as it took too long for teachers to grade them.
I would re-grade Gunner’s and the girl’s essays for POOR grammar.
Remember the red pens from our teachers?
If the teachers don’t correct the problems in writing, the kids incessantly make the same mistakes.
daughnworks247
“AMEN, essays fell by the wayside as it took too long for teachers to grade them.
I would re-grade Gunner’s and the girl’s essays for POOR grammar.
Remember the red pens from our teachers?
If the teachers don’t correct the problems in writing, the kids incessantly make the same mistakes.”
____________________________________
My kids wanted to get a T-shirt from the library reading X amount of books during the summer. My husband made them write a book report each time they took out books and when he got home he would grade the book report and red lined the paper.
Our youngest had to practice penmanship because he could not even eat his won writing.
Oh gosh, you’re taking me back.
I had Mrs. Dodson, 6th grade Language Arts. She was relentless. We had to write 500 words on “XYZ”, she would grade and return. Then, we had to rewrite. Grade and return. Sometimes, we did it a dozen times for one essay, but usually, at least 6 times per essay.
ALL YEAR LONG.
Yet, that’s what it takes to learn.
First husband transferred here to teach community college as a feeder to a local printing company. The program was a complete failure. His answer, “How can I teach them to print down to 1/1000 of an inch, when they cannot find 1/4″ on a ruler? AND, they can’t add?”
One of my high school classmates ended up being the guy who ran the emissions test on my car one year. He told me my car had failed, which was absurd–it generally registered zero.
I asked him to show me. Analog dials and he had no idea how to read them. I called him on it, and–a miracle–he believed me.
Hey Steve, let me ask your thought on this one.
Do you think… a large part of the reason people pass on to other grades is because of social embarrassment of failing?
It’s not up to them.
But people are passed on more than likely because it would hurt their self esteem not to be.
I do remember one kid being left back once.
One.
Yep. Basic functionality should be there by eighth grade.
I’m not sure of its monetary value but I think an education in the classics, English literature, history etc can only add value to a society. Note i am not talking about the revisionist shit they do today. The past is a different country and whilst some attitudes have changed people lived and died for god king and country. These were their beliefs. They believed in traditional family units and were not accepting of divorce or homosexuality. They were what they were and should not be judged by modern ideas of feminism and toxic masculinity. The great philosophers and great writers give us windows to the human soul. Western civilisation was built incrementally by thinkers, many of whom were quite odd. (Newton for a start) the British had a great tolerance /respect for the excentric. A good light read is Churchill’s ministry of ungentlemanly warfare. The brits harnessed the economy in war and unleashed these oddballs way better than a top down nazi Germany did.
Anyone looking for a funny, moving novel I’ve just finished a man called ove. Very few books have ever made me laugh out loud. Up there with my family and other animals
Brilliant comment. Thank you.
Agree 100%.
“It should be possible to get basic reading, writing and arithmetic out of the way by eighth grade…”
______
This *used to* happen by Grade Six.
That is why it was called ‘Elementary School’ for grades 1 through 6.
Students were expected to have their basic…elementary…education accomplished by grade 6, or they were held back.
Above that was called High School.
I cant find anything where anything above 6th grade was ever considered high school, but by all means, if you have a source I’d love to see it. I *have* seen some astoundingly advanced quizzes given as examples of older high school entrance exams from a hundred years ago, but as far as I know, those were given after 8, not 6, years of school.
So far as I know high school was grades 9-12. (Although the district I went through had this “Junior High School” thing going on, with 7-9 in a building called a junior high school but grade 9 still counted towards your high school GPA. They later switched back to having 9th grade in the high school building.)
My thought (though I didn’t make it very clear) was to teach other things than the 3 Rs, in growing proportions, throughout those 8 years, things like basic geography and civics, basic algebra, composition, science, etc. As much to give students some basic knowledge about the world as to find out if they are interested and have the ability to go into an academic field. That would mean that the bare basics (tools, no additional knowledge) could be got out of the way by 6th grade or even earlier, if you wanted to release ignorant-but-educable people into the world.
In any case, high school would be MUCH more advanced in my system than it is today for most people (it is possible to learn a fair amount in high school–but it’s possible NOT to as well).
Another feature would be that NONE of this would be compulsory and ideally, it’d all be private/home. I’d even go so far as to have companies out there designing curricula for high school, and parents could choose a school that offers the one they want. Perhaps one set of parents would want to emphasize foreign languages and learning about the rest of the world (there are multiple good patriotic reasons to be interested in this sort of thing, so don’t necessarily be disgusted), and another, more engineering prep.
As a related aside: There is something called the “International Standard Classification of Education (ISCED)” (more globalism!!) that puts grades 1-5 in level 1 or “primary”, 6-8 in level 2 or “lower secondary” and 9-12 in level 3 or “higher secondary.”
I was referring to colonial days and into the 1800’s, when schools were all private.
Elementary school, or primary school, was also called ‘Grammar School’ back in the day.
That was when those schools were mainly for boys…who were expected to go to work at age 11, or earlier if they were physically big enough.
It was acknowledged that workers could be better workers if they knew how to read…and could read signs and instructions.
The basics of Reading-Writing-Arithmetic were taught in Elementary School, because that was the only formal education that most people received back then.
I was speaking from memory, which predates the internet.
In the 60’s and 70’s when I went to school, these things were still in the local curricula where I attended…this was before the Dept of Ed was created.
In trying to find some citing for what I remember, I spent a couple of hours searching the internet…until my eyes glazed over.
😳😲
It’s worse than I thought.
Progressive pedagogy has pretty well omitted some things and slanted the History of Education to fit their agenda.
I did find this:
https://people.howstuffworks.com/public-schools1.htm
——– FTA:
By the 1840s, a few public schools had popped up around the country in the communities that could afford them. However, that smattering of schools wasn’t good enough for education crusaders Horace Mann of Massachusetts and Henry Barnard of Connecticut. They began calling for free, compulsory school for every child in the nation.
Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school laws in 1852. New York followed the next year, and by 1918, all American children were required to attend at least elementary school.
————-
That’s right.
Even in the early 20th century, Only elementary school was mandatory.
High Schools were considered ‘preparatory’ for college…and apart from the New England states and a few big cities, most communities didn’t have ‘free’ High Schools for students to attend.
For example, Latin was taught in most high schools back then, as preparation for degrees in Law and Medicine.
Latin was still taught in the high school that I attended…but only the kids whose parents expected them to become doctors & lawyers took those classes.
The rest of us avoided them.
Colleges also used to require a proficiency in Latin, for students who were pre-law or pre-med.
I took the ‘teaching block’ when in college, which had some History of Education included in those required classes.
I figured that teaching would be something to fall back on, if I needed it…but chose to go into business ownership instead.
The textbooks that I learned from were mostly over 50 yrs old, and the required reading from the Library were often even older.
There could have been some slanting of the information in those books…but I don’t think so.
Back then, even classic liberals valued the truth, whatever it was.
I was appalled to see the list of credits in the Wikipedia articles I just read, on the History of Education.
They were all progressive sites.
They even used Obama’s OFA/OrganizingForAmerica as a source!
Something else I learned back when I was in school…something that is rarely mentioned today, if at all…is that since ‘teenagers’ were given to bullying the smaller kids, that is why Elementary School cut off at grade 6.
Back in the old days, they put those teenage troublemakers to work.
Hah. 😄
A practice that might be a good idea today!
Let the teenagers spend their time working through their teen years…and THEN let them go back to school to continue their higher education.
I’ll bet they would be eager to go to school after that!
Great stuff, Wheatie!
“Let the teenagers spend their time working through their teen years…and THEN let them go back to school to continue their higher education.
I’ll bet they would be eager to go to school after that!”
Amazing how my GPA improved when I went back to school as an adult. Hmmmmm!!
Thanks, Daughn.
😌
I was busy doing babysitting, yard work and any other jobs I could get…from about 10 yrs on.
I was saving money for a car!
When I was old enough to get ‘real’ jobs, I worked as a waitress at a Holiday Inn…on weekends and in the summer.
And I was sooo proud of the little Volkswagen Bug that I bought with my savings.
The work was good for me!
It gave me real-world application for what I was learning in school…and I don’t think I would’ve gotten straight A’s if I hadn’t gotten that work experience.
While I think our child labor laws are a good thing…in theory…I think that kids could benefit from doing hard work on a regular basis, in their teen years.
Amen. Gosh, we made a fortune babysitting, then worked as a A&P cashier.
Just like you, I went to work as a hostess for a Sheraton hotel restaurant. I was hired on Monday and the manager was fired on Friday. I was the only one with keys to register, so I became the unofficial manager. Strange though, Sheraton paid for my first degree, HRT Management. I lived in the hotel for most of college. See what happens when we take a chance?
Daughn,
I really enjoy this. President Trump knows him.
“Nobody Can Educate You, Except Yourself” – SELF-MANAGEMENT – John Taylor Gatto
Gatto is fanstastic.
He wrote “The Underground History of American Education” and it is a depressing read.
Gatto is fantastic
Love this guy!
I don’t know. Sometimes, I think we underestimate our kids too much. Gunner’s class started science in 2nd grade. Husband and I showed up as “Lab mom and Lab dad” at least once a month, sometimes once a week.
We did all kinds of stuff on a shoestring budget.
We did a chapter on astronomy and had 27kids (over half of whom were minorities) for a slumber party to watch a meteor shower. Had to wake some of them up for the meteor shower. We had a big BBQ and bonfire out back and told stories about sailors navigating by the stars. We borrowed telescopes and wrangled every pair of binoculars we could get our hands on. Other parents spent the night as well.
The kids still talk about it, and I bet they can all find, North Star, Big Dipper, etc.
I am trying to link a meme
YES YES YES
Gatto is correct John Dewey did EXACTLY THAT in the University of Chicago Exp. Lab. School. He figured out a way to PREVENT children from learning to “stand on their own two feet and think for themselves. “ because it “was detrimental to the “social spirit” needed to bring about a collectivist society.” … the stinking SOB.
I like it, plus it gets the kids away from all the political correctness BS from dumb-ass leftist teachers.
Btw, I saw this thread today about out-of-control education costs/debt in response to Liawatha Warren’s school debt relief. Also a little insight to healthcare costs. Summary – College Ed is not a very good return on investment; Colleges should be held partially responsible. By Carol Roth.
Great thread and writer!
Problem with Liawatha, what about all the kids and families who made the sacrifice and paid the bills?
Very true ! Like all Dem proposals just looking for another niche voting block to pander to. They do the same with immigration….they don’t care about those that went thru the legal process with all the costs and sacrifice…..don’t care about those that work…let’s just give money away to those that don’t work…on and on and on !
Lotta food for thought here. May have to ponder a while instead of a quick comment. Off topic. Draw and strike -the msm is screwed.
Okay, we admit it – you (and your kin) are a new superior subspecies of homo sapiens.
Seriously, that kid of yours needs to write a book on how he was raised. Who did the most input, whose input he liked, what sort of standards he was taught, etc. Then he could market it as a self-help book for those who had dysfunctional childhoods, allowing them to identify those areas where the dysfunction was. That information would help minimize the major funding source of psychologists which is “sessions” to find where the problem is and/or how to cover up the problem so as to be sociable.
And no, I’m not joking. Possibly I’m a bit off my rocker but I’m still lovable.
Very much so. Just as well I don’t know where you live or you would be receiving my 16 yr old a la Paddington bear Daughn
I don’t know, PGroup, alcoholism in his dad, our 4 yr divorce death match, left him with many scars. Not ideal, for sure, but it made us closer.
Did you fight over the mayonnaise?
I loved that man with everything in me – but it wasn’t enough. When he started taking it out on Gunner, he crossed the line.
I’m surprised he’s still walking. I can see you as a mamma bear defending your young.
Oops. Made an assumption there. Is he still walking?
He is still walking. It was a nightmare. But Gunner was my line in the sand. I even considered fleeing the country. Really bad….
The education system is a “system”. Systems are methodology driven. Enter data, perform a function, determine results, rank the students, move the students on down the line. “Teachers” simply manage the process. Currently, the system is used to program the students for somebody else’s purposes – not the students. The education system is owned by the masters of the global plantation. The students and school employees are their servants and slaves. If they do not follow the system, they are weeded out or leave on their own.
All of it has to change. All of it, if we are serious about learning and growing as compared to programming for future use by others. Being a teacher has to stop being about getting a decent job out of college where you can pay your bills and believe you might make a difference. It’s all canned spam.
Your son is an astute young man. Listen to him.
And just to throw some sand in the petroleum jelly, go here:
https://www.newschool.edu/about/
You’ll have to find a different name. Yeah, the place is a leftist/commie cesspool.
Great spot, PGroup!
One more John Gatto
John Gatto had a stroke and that affected his speaking ability. I just thought you might want to know.
I am an online college student now. It is different from the traditional college. It is disjointed right now, but I’m learning to integrate the slide style of the information presentation. I had to review a summary of a case study of the LEGO corporation. One interesting thing they are doing for marketing and innovation is partnering with a Chicago architect to develop a new line called Create. The sets are made to put together well known structures. Today I saw a set constructed on display at the local library. Wow, the masonary details of old buildings was there as well as other architectural details. It was 😎! Now there is a non technology way to engage the brain and keep or get a different and possibly older audiences.
I envision a whole new set of instruction materials with this Create series for high schools and colleges!
What an interesting class. Good for you for stretching.
I am glad that your son mentioned how to “recognize bias/propaganda within the information”….because this is a big problem with a lot of the information that is online.
You’ve taught him well, Daughn.
😀👍
Back in the 80’s when huge amounts of information was being downloaded onto internet sites…I remember thinking, “Hmm, I hope they are posting accurate information and not just slanted, one-sided views.”
But alas…there *is* a lot of info out there that is slanted and biased — and most of it is biased toward the Left.
Critical Thinking is sooo important.
And to your son’s credit (thanks to you), he understands how important it is.
I agree that our education model is outdated in some ways.
But in other ways, it has discarded some of the ‘old ways’ that should have been preserved.
As others have mentioned…some children do not have a home environment that is conducive to learning.
So a classroom situation is an improvement over what they have at home.
When public schools were started, a lot of the parents had no formal education at all.
This is not the case today, for the most part…and most parents these days at least know how to read, but there is still a wide variety education levels.
It is hard for me to believe that the internet holds ‘most all’ of the information out there that is worth knowing.
And the problem with Search Engines is that you have to know which ‘search words’ to use, to find the things that you are wanting to learn about…and the leading search engines are dishonest and biased towards the Left.
Wikipedia is joke, for example, and has as much disinformation as it has factual true information.
It serves as a sort of illustration of what is out there on the internet as a whole, though…because there is a lot of disinformation on the web.
Right now, Homeschooling is good way for parents to give their children a better education than they would get in most of our public schools…because of the current sorry state of our leftist-controlled school system.
From what I understand, there are a lot of online resources that Homeschooler Parents can avail themselves of…and a lot of them do.
But unfortunately, working parents don’t have the time to devote to Homeschooling.
Kudos to your son for thinking about this.
We have a lot of work to do on our education system, going forward…and it is good that there are young people like your son, who are thinking of ways to improve it.
Deep admiration for homeschool parents who do a great job.
Me too!
To begin with, I’m not the average data point — I was such a pain in the ass in first grade that my teacher sent me to a second grade classroom to mentally engage me. While I wasn’t there, she sat me in the corner with batteries and switches and light bulbs and allowed me to teach myself electric wiring. When the school year ended, I skipped 2nd grade and went to 3rd. I graduated High School at 16 and graduated college in 3-1/2 years at 20 in the early 80s. My first interviews couldn’t take me to a restaurant that and serve alcohol. When my school got to the point where they slotted me for driver training, I was a year from when I could legally have a learner’s permit.
So, I’m a little off when it comes to such things — I don’t think there should be degrees, I think there should be competencies. And, frankly, I believe that none should be determined by a calendar. I think six year olds should qualify for driver’s licences if they have the requisite competencies — and 30-year-olds shouldn’t if they lack them.
Cthulhu, we need to talk. I skipped kindergarten and 4th grade. Always presented an age problem, although our state allowed driver’s license at 15. Graduated at 16, first spring break in college, to Florida, I had to stay at the condo cuz I was barely 17. I was, however, a girl. When it came to my sons, the schools were adamantly opposed to skipping a grade… cuz “sports”.
When we flipped one son to private school, they were literally a year ahead. He struggled, almost failing for the first month, but ended up with A’s. When he flipped back to private school, he literally had to repeat a whole grade of curriculum – would not allow him to skip. They even used the same text book in 3 of 7 classes. Definitely not CHILD focused. Archaic and boring.
8th grade rolled around and our Congressman nominated him to a special 4-5 day summit with a group of kids from 3 states. He had a great time, BUT when Monday rolled around…. he told me the following story:
He started his day in a regular class, and was so sad, not to be with the group of other kids from 3 states, that he laid his head down on the desk and cried. My child cried….. because he felt stuck in a boring school, “moving at the speed of a snail” and longed for a better way to learn. He wanted more.
What does that say about our system?
What our son said struck me deeply, and I knew we had to do something. As a high school freshman, we became so desperate, as parents, I took him to the Chair of Bio at a local state college and begged the professor for help to challenge our son. The professor hired him. The prof had a NSF grant to map fertilizer runoff for the lower half of the Mississippi River. So, Gunner spent a semester and summer, with lab samples, and carrying the boat for two grad students from Princeton and the prof. Strangely, it worked out better for the prof because Gunner was more relatable to the farmers. Less opposition = more cooperation.
We teased him that he was the Ivy League’s Huck Finn – working on the Miss. River.
Turned out to be one of the best things we’ve ever done.
Had a step son with straight A’s but a sea of red marks for conduct grades. That kid had a black heart. Spooky. Could have been the Unibomber. Constant battle to keep him busy. I would create quizzes for him after school, and for years, tucked extra work into his book bags. Perfect score on an ACT and BLEW a full ride to college. Went to Texas to work in the oil fields at 19. He’s now a stamped civil engineer.
Another step-daughter who caused YEARS of animosity among her sisters, misdiagnosed with ADHD. No, she had a 145IQ and needed a schedule. Another young black girl, who was big and heavy as a child, but Gunner kept bringing her home, ….turned into his girlfriend for a while. Her family was military but not a lot of opportunity. She took the test for Math and Science school, along with Gunner, and got in. She’s at Vanderbilt Law School now. Another step-daughter, 4-6th grade and struggling to read. Back to Phonics, again. Made her read recipes when we cooked. Hours and hours of time to get her up to speed. She’s working on her master’s degree today.
I wish kids came with a maintenance manual.
So easy to make mistakes.
Competencies are an interesting idea.
Oldest grandson…teacher and school in Seattle area insisted he had to go on Ritalin in K. Parents gave them the finger. Transferred to Missouri, just prior to his first grade school year.
School in MO tested him before school started and learned of his IQ of 150 plus something. He was put in with his regular age classmates plus a very good gifted program that he attended several days a week instead of regular classes all week. Four year scholarship plus now grad school scholarship and lab assistent mony.
His sister got so much undergrad scholarship money, she is getting money back.
Can you imagine where these kids would be if their parents acquiesced to the Ritalin pushers.
See there!!!!!!!!
Good for your grandson. We could tell a similar story, so many times, for so many children. It makes me weep.
It does. So sad. In HS he could have gotten in trouble many times, but the school recognized his genious and would ask him the WHY of what he did, and usually everything plausibly correlated to his recognized abilities. When he graduated, daughter dearest gave his teachers and principal nice thank you gift cards. LOL.
Great article about the differences between those who are intellectually gifted and those who are motivationally gifted.
Wish I had this info long ago.
My step son, the “unibomber”, wouldn’t cross the street for a million dollars.
Zero motivation.
https://lauragraceweldon.com/2018/07/03/how-we-shortchange-gifted-kids/
I think this is the best description of really being educated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-n-HWGXGpc
Wrong link. Sorry. IPOT was interesting about the N. Korea situation, but this is what I meant to post.
Real Education
Really good thread DNW. Interesting perspectives by commenters and your son’s uninhibited ponderance of current education offers much food for thought
Because we live next door to a school, many girlfriends are teachers. The teachers have a million thoughts on how to make education better. They KNOW but the system gets in the way of their best efforts.
Very interesting thoughts linked from Geddes’ newsletter today…
http://www.triviumeducation.com/
The Arts….. interesting. Thank you, Triple T.