DEAR MAGA: Open Thread 20220217

I didn’t forget about you, it’s just taking some time 😁

Sorry this took so long Aubergine, I wrote it the other night when I saw your question, but there’s a lot, so I wanted to read through it before I posted it, to check for errors as best as I could.

I’ll post it in parts, so no one part is real long.

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“Question for you. Honest question, no gotcha or trick, I’m just interested.”
 
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Gotcha questions are 100% fair game, the best kind of questions. If I’m wrong, I want to know.
 
Faith is not a crutch as some say, it’s a challenge.
 
It can certainly provide comfort, but it also takes effort.
 
And as Paul said, if Christ was not truly resurrected, if it never happened, if Christians are wrong, if we only have hope in Christ while we are alive, if our belief is not in something real, then we are miserable above all mankind:
 
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“If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” (1 Corinthians 15:19, KJV)
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So ‘gotcha questions’ are helpful. If anyone has a gotcha question that will prove my belief is in error, there is probably no shortage of other things I could find to do on Sundays, or in place of Bible study, etc.
 
And if anyone has information that will prove my understanding of Christian belief or practice in some thing is wrong, so that I can come to be better understanding of the truth, then you would be a friend to me for doing so.
 
Truth is what matters.
 
I want to be invested in truth. If I find out that some investment I have made in truth is in error (i.e., my understanding is wrong), I will get rid of it and reinvest in the correct understanding.
 
If I discover that something I have believed is wrong, I have no desire to continue to defend it, in order to support all the other understandings which rely upon it. If one part falls, whatever is built upon it falls with it. If it’s wrong then it should fall, and if other stuff was built on top of something that was wrong, it should fall too.
 
This is never a problem, because the foundation is Christ, and the revelation of God’s Word is for our understanding of Christ. So even if my understanding about some thing is wrong, even if my error in understanding causes other understandings to be called into question, even if most of my understanding was razed to the ground as a result, I always have the foundation, and the foundation never changes.
 
It certainly helps to avoid such a collapse, by not building anything on the foundation that God’s Word does not expressly teach, whether by command, example or necessary (not possible, but necessary) inference.
 
And of course I also ask ‘gotcha’ questions all the time, because they are effective at revealing whether we can defend what we believe — in matters of Christianity, or anything else.
 
So if I use them — and I do — then is it not only fair that I welcome them in return?

So I do 👍🙂
 
It pretty much has to be that way, doesn’t it? 😁

“Do you believe when Jesus came he negated Levitical Law, or not?
 
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Please understand that I am not a pastor, this is my understanding, which I believe is supported by God’s Word, and which I always aim to show is supported by God’s Word, in a way that is easy to see, understand and verify.

I would not use the word ‘negate’, but that He fulfilled the Old Law, and thereby ended it.
 
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“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 15:17-18, KJV)
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The word “till” is synonymous with the word “until”:
 
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Merriam-Webster: “Many assume that till is an abbreviated form of until. Actually, it is a distinctive word that existed in English at least a century before until, both as a preposition meaning “to” and a conjunction meaning “until.” It has seen continuous use in English since the 12th century and is a perfectly legitimate synonym of until.”
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The word ‘fulfilled’ occurs 82 times in the Bible, and if I counted right, 57 of them are in the NT, and the large majority have to do with Jesus, fulfilling law and prophecy.
 
In the Gospel of John, “It is finished” is the last thing Jesus said:
 
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“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.” (John 19:30, KJV)
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It is also always good to look at things from a logical perspective or context too, to make sure logic is consistent with our understanding.
 
If the Law (the Ten Commandments, moral and ceremonial law) was not fulfilled and ended with Christ on the cross, then we better be keeping it still today, shouldn’t we?
 
We should be observing the sabbath, we should be making animal sacrifices for sin according to the Law of Moses, not eating pork or shellfish, etc.
 
Clearly we don’t do that, and New Testament Christianity does not teach that we should be doing that.
 
New Testament Christianity teaches:
 
“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” (Hebrews 10:4, KJV)
 
“In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.” (Hebrews 10:6)
 
“Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Hebrews 10:8-10)
 
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The Old Covenant Law of Moses was prophesied to come to an end in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and that this has indeed happened is confirmed in the New Testament (Hebrews 8:8-13):
 
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“In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.” (Hebrews 8:13, KJV, boldface mine)
 
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:24-25, boldface mine)
 
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14, boldface mine)
 
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” (Galatians 5:1, boldface mine)
 
“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [16] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. [18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. [19] For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, [20] Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.” (Hebrews 9:15-20, boldface mine)
 
“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.” (Ephesians 2:11-17 boldface mine)

“I know Christians who DO this stuff, today. When I talk to them about it, they have all kinds of complex (and scriptural) reasoning for why they do it. It’s why I asked what you thought.”

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This is an interesting thing, how best to approach it?

If someone is doing something like that, e.g., making blood sacrifice of animals to make atonement for sin, they must believe it and believe that they are doing what God commands — and likewise, that everyone who does not do it is wrong.

Because God is not double-minded. Being perfect, God does not contradict Himself, ergo two different practices or beliefs which contradict each other cannot both be true.

They could both be in error, but they cannot both be true, and be in contradiction.

Much error arises from the apparent oversight that God does not contradict Himself.

There are many things in the Bible which, if taken out of context, or considered without taking other passages on the same subject into account, lead to error.

If God is perfect, knowing the end from the beginning (cf. Isaiah 45:10), if God is the Author of all Scripture, then He will not contradict Himself — in Scripture, or anywhere else. In other words, His Word will reconcile and harmonize with itself.

So if we find something that appears to be a contradiction in God’s Word, that is not an indication that God made a mistake, though it’s fine for a skeptic or non-believer to pursue it as if God made a mistake, because if they follow it all the way, they will discover the truth.

This is a key to understanding God’s Word, that if God cannot make a mistake, and yet we come across an apparent contradiction in God’s Word, that means there is something we are missing or not understanding properly.

We cannot simply proceed in doing some thing which appears to be supported in one part of God’s Word and yet is condemned or contradicted in another, and just ignore the part where it is condemned (or contradicted).

If your own father left you a note for you to read when you got home from school, and among other things it said “Clean up your room” in one part, and said “Don’t clean up your room” in another, and you only read those two parts, that would be confusing, wouldn’t it?

Which one would you do, and which would you not do, and how could you please your father, when he appears to have instructed you to do two contradictory things?

But what if the note also said in another part “If you have not completed your schoolwork, then do that first, and don’t clean up your room, that can wait until tomorrow”, then the apparent contradiction is gone, the coherence of the message reconciles and harmonizes and makes sense, and the confusion is eliminated.

It’s the same with God and His Word.

God is not the author of confusion.

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“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” (1 Corinthians 14:23)
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So wherever confusion exists, it is on the part of man, not God.

It is possible that our own father could make a mistake (or many mistakes), but it is not possible that God could make a mistake.

So if we see two verses that appear to contradict each other in God’s Word, that means we are missing something, it’s a puzzle to be solved. Maybe we need to ‘zoom out’ to see the bigger picture (context), maybe there is a third passage elsewhere that gives priority to one of the two things in apparent conflict, etc., we can’t just pick one to do and ignore the other.

But many do exactly that, and as a result, find themselves acting in open contradiction to some portion of God’s Word.

How can that be allowed to go on? How can anyone who self-identifies as a faithful Christian be in open defiance or disagreement with God’s Word — and by extension then, with God Himself?

We must discover the solution to the apparent contradiction, to arrive at the true understanding, where God’s Word harmonizes and reconciles with itself.

So back to those you mentioned who are following parts of the Old Testament Law of Moses, making animal sacrifice for atonement of sin, there are some clear problems with that, which must be resolved, they cannot simply be ignored.

If we seek to keep a portion of the Old Law, we deny Christ, and we are a debtor to (must keep) the WHOLE of the Old Law.

Bearing in mind that no man was able to perfectly keep the Old Law, except the Man Christ Jesus.

For example, circumcision was required by the Old Law for the Jews.

The practice actually began earlier, in Genesis chapter 17, with Abraham (who was still called Abram, up until Genesis chapter 17, verse five, when God renamed him Abraham) and is referenced in Acts 7:8.

Exodus (12:44, 12:47, 12:48, 12:49-50), Leviticus (12:3), and Joshua (chapter 5) establish the practice of circumcision for the children of Israel, and for any strangers who would eat the Passover with the children of Israel (a.k.a. Jacob, until God renamed Jacob, calling him Israel, cf. Genesis 35:10, cf. Gen 32:28, Gen 48:2, Gen 49:2, 1 Kings 18:31, 2 Kings 17:34, lots more)

So there was this practice of circumcision, which even predated the Law of Moses, all the way back to Abraham, and was then codified in the Law of Moses.

It was commanded and required by God.

But does the Law of Christ require it? Does New Testament Christianity require circumcision of the flesh, or of the heart?

Circumcision of the flesh is practiced widely throughout the world today, for a variety of reasons (health, culture, etc.), but only Jews seeking to keep the Old Law of Moses do it for Scriptural reasons, and yet they don’t keep the whole Law either, because they can’t, because the Temple has not been rebuilt.

The NT uses the subject of circumcision extensively as an example of clarifying the distinction between the Old and the New.

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“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. [5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” (Galatians 5:3-5)
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That is a big, BIG deal. To be fallen from grace is to be spiritually lost, because we are saved by grace, through faith:

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” (Ephesians 2:8)

If we seek to keep the Old Law, the Law of Moses, which Christ fulfilled and ended, then we become debtors to the whole of the Old Law of Moses, a Law which no man was able to perfectly keep, except only the Man Christ Jesus was able to perfectly keep, and therefore fulfill.

So to attempt to keep any part of the Old Law of Moses is going backward, denying Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, the final sacrifice, once for all:

“Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 

[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 

[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 

[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 

[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 

[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:8-14, KJV, boldface mine)

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“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10, KJV)
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I realize this can seem complicated if any of these concepts or passages are new to a reader.

Sort of like trying to explain the mid-point of a movie, without benefit of the context of the beginning and what led up to that point.

The overall point I am hoping to get across is that God’s Word is not in conflict with itself, it works together as a cohesive whole, it reconciles and harmonizes with itself, forwards and backwards.

Where we perceive a contradiction, that is an indication that we are not properly understanding something, because God, being perfect, does not contradict Himself.

If we don’t understand something, we cannot (or at least should not) just do the part we think we understand and ignore the part(s) of God’s Word that contradicts our understanding.

In order for our understanding to be correct, we must be able to reconcile and harmonize our understanding with ALL of God’s Word on a given subject, not just with one part, or another.

I hope that makes sense, and I hope the importance of it makes sense. 🙂

“It makes enough sense that I understand what you believe. Which is the point of my asking!”

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Good!

Does it also make enough sense that you understand WHY I believe it?

Does the reasoning also make sense?

Because I could say I believe in flying unicorns, and you would understand that I believe in flying unicorns, but if that is as far as it went, then you would not understand why I believe it.

If I then said I believe in flying unicorns because the color orange makes a pretty sound, you would not understand my reasoning for believing in flying unicorns, but you might think I was on an acid trip 😁

So understanding what I believe is one thing, and understanding why I believe it is a separate thing.

For every single thing I believe in matters of God, I better have book, chapter and verse to support it, and it better not contradict any other instruction in God’s Word on the same subject.

I better be able to show it and explain it, right there in God’s Word, for anyone to look at and see and verify for themselves.

I better be able to say “Here is why I believe it, because it says so right here, and here, and here”.

At that point, someone may challenge it, saying “But over here in this other passage is says something different”.

THIS is when we need to look deeper, to figure out why the apparent contradiction exists, and resolve it in a way that harmonizes and reconciles with all of God’s Word on the subject, because God, being perfect, does not contradict Himself.

It is through this process that every honest heart can come to like understanding. It is through this process that unity in Christ is possible.

How could such like understanding be achieved any other way?

For an example, suppose your friends believe in animal sacrifice for atonement of sin, and I believe Christ’s death and resurrection and the New Testament resulted in the end of that practice.

How could either of us hold either belief, without an Authoritative book which told us those things? Where else could we have gotten the ideas?

What could we know about God, or matters having to do with God, that God has not revealed to us?

It’s the same with everyone, isn’t it?

If I could not observe you and hear you directly, and I cannot read your mind, then what can I know about you, that you do not reveal?

So if we (in this case, your friends who practice the whole Bible including animal sacrifice for atonement of sin, and me) believe in the same God revealed in the Bible, then by definition, the Bible ought to be Authoritative in our beliefs.

In other words, neither of us would have any reason to believe what we believe, if the Bible did not exist.

So the Bible is our common reference point and acknowledged source of Highest Authority.

If we believe different things about what God’s Word says, then one of us (or both of us) must be in error, because we (your friends and I) cannot both be right, and be in contradiction to each other.

It is possible that we could both be wrong, but we cannot both be right, and be in contradiction.

God’s Word is the ‘tie-breaker’, the highest source of Authority, the final arbiter, the highest Court of Appeal.

And if God is perfect, if God does not contradict Himself (which I am nearly certain your friends would agree with), then if we have a disagreement, it can be (and can only be) resolved by gong to God’s Word, the highest Authority, and reconciling what we believe and practice with what God’s Word actually says.

I strongly suspect your friends would agree with me, at least up to this point.

So then it becomes a relatively simple (though potentially lengthy) process of establishing the Biblical case for what each of us believes and practices with regard to a certain thing.

For example, animal sacrifice. Your friends would make their best Biblical case to support the Christian NT practice of animal sacrifice.

And I would present my best Biblical case why animal sacrifice is not part of New Testament Christianity.

I would cross-examine their case, and they would cross-examine mine.

There would be rebuttals, questions asked and answered, facts established, further proof texts offered in defense or to prove error, etc.

Thanks to the existence of God’s Word, and that they and I both (presumably) recognize God’s Word as the highest Authority there is or can be, it is possible to resolve the dispute.

It is through such a process of examination and comparing what we believe and practice to what God’s Word says, that it is possible to arrive at a common understanding.

Unless one or both of us are more interested in believing whatever we believe, than in discovering the truth according to God’s Word.

Unfortunately, that is usually what happens.

One or both sides dig in their heels, because they have too much to lose by conceding error, they are too invested in their practice or belief to acknowledge that what they believe is in error.

Because not always, but usually, if there is an error in one thing, it is unlikely that error exists in a vacuum, unconnected to anything else.

So if an error is acknowledged in one thing, even a seemingly small thing, but it is connected to some other belief of practice, then to acknowledge an error in even the small thing begins to unravel a much bigger thing. Like dominoes falling.

And once that starts, the entire ball of yarn can begin to unravel, so at some point, the discussion is often ended abruptly with something like “we will just have to agree to disagree”.

Sadly, that is what usually happens.

But there will usually be some in attendance, with honest hearts, who care more about being right with God than being right with men, and who see which belief is supported by God’s Word and contradicted by no passage in God’s Word.

There will usually be some who recognize the truth, even if their brethren are running away from it.

At that point, they know.

What they do with that knowledge is up to them.

If they have an honest heart and a good conscience toward God, will they seek to please God, or men?

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“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:10)

“Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)
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As everyone on this forum knows, from political observations and observations of the world we live in, human beings are easily deceived into group-think, or following the crowd. It is a source of constant frustration, both with those who oppose us, and even with those who are ostensibly pro-MAGA but who don’t want to wake fully up.

We talk about it all the time.

Religions are no different in that regard.

How can we know whether we have fallen into group-think, or an echo-chamber, or following the crowd, with regard to matters of God?

How can we know whether we are just following the doctrines and commandments and traditions of our particular group, or whether we are following what God’s Word actually says?

There is only one way, and that is to be willing to compare what we are taught and believe or practice, to what God’s Word actually says, which we have example in God’s Word to do:

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“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11)
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Either we will do it, or we won’t.

If we do it, and we see that what we have been taught cannot be reconciled with all of God’s Word on a given subject, if we see with our own eyes that the things we have been taught are not actually so, according to God’s Word, the highest Authority there is, then we must have the integrity and intellectual honesty to change our beliefs to be in accordance with God’s Word, as opposed to the doctrines, commandments or traditions of men.

Or remain in error, with the knowledge that we are doing so.

The world will try very hard to get us to justify or rationalize remaining in error.

Truth requires that we choose it over the world.

Whether we do or not, is a choice we must each make for ourselves.

“Do you follow the Old Testament laws, or not? If not, why not?”
 
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I certainly read and accept the OT fully as God’s Word, and in many respects, the NT would not make sense or have context without the OT, but I do not follow the OT Law of Moses, because that applied specifically to the Jews, and was fulfilled and ended, as demonstrated by the several passages above, in my previous reply.
 
However, the moral laws (as opposed to the ceremonial laws) are included in the New Testament also, e.g., we are not to commit murder, lie, steal, etc., because these things are all sin, as they have always been.
 
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“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17)
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“It’s in the Bible. Jesus said he didn’t come to negate the law, but to fulfill it. That means to bring something into actuality, or meet a requirement.”
 
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Agreed.